Oral argument; MSSA v Holder US Motion to dismiss

http://www.thementalmilitia.com/forums/index.php?topic=24021.0

Fwd: Report - Oral argument; MSSA v Holder US Motion to Dismiss
From: Gary Marbut-MSSA
To: mssa@mtssa.org
Dear MSSA Friends,
Oral argument was held today on the U.S. Motion to Dismiss MSSA v.
Holder, our lawsuit to validate the principles of the Montana
Firearms Freedom Act.
The hearing took place in the U.S. Courthouse at the corner of
Broadway and Pattee in Missoula, beginning at 9:00 AM, and finished
shortly after 11:00 AM.
The U.S. moved to dismiss the lawsuit (standard, boilerplate move)
based on standing, jurisdiction, and merit.
Concerning standing, the U.S. argues that I, as the sole individual
plaintiff, don't face imminent injury to allow me to obtain judicial
relief because there is no certainty that the BATFE will arrest me
and the U.S. will prosecute me if I forge ahead with plans to make
MFFA items without federal permission (licensure).
About jurisdiction, the feds say the U.S. is sovereign and cannot be
sued, except under the provisions of the Administrative Procedures
Act which allows suit to clarify rights and responsibilities only
after "final agency action." The U.S. says that the BATFE letter to
me advising me that I will be prosecuted if I make any MFFA items for
resale is not final agency action, although the U.S. cannot say what
other position the BATFE could take to grant me any relief beyond
what it already has done (threaten me with prosecution if I make
MFFA-protected items).
About merit, the U.S. says that precedent is against the MFFA
concept, our side is bound to lose, so the court might as well just
dismiss the lawsuit now.
In this hearing, the U.S. was represented by
Jessica
Leinwand, a young Department of Justice attorney from D.C. Jessica
seemed bright, competent, well prepared, but only knowledgeable in a
bookish way. That is, she seemed quick with and knowledgeable about
case citations that supported her side of the argument, but she did
not mount or support any philosophically-based arguments. Although
Jessica's arguments seemed to be competently mounted, they also
seemed to lack any touch of passion or personal vestment. One may
suppose it's difficult to wax passionate about arguing the federal
government position.
For a young attorney with limited experience to travel half way
across the country to a strange place and stand in opposition to a
half-dozen other experienced attorneys must be a nervous-making,
intimidating experience. However nervous, Jessica did not let it
show and did a good job of focusing on business at hand.
There were a whole string of attorneys representing our side of this
contest. Lead attorney for Plaintiffs (MSSA, SAF, and me) was
Quentin Rhoades, a partner with the Missoula firm of
Sullivan, Tabaracci and
Rhoades. Quentin has been lead counsel for Plaintiffs on this case
since the inception, and has done other litigation for MSSA. Quentin
was accompanied by ST&R attorney Rob Erickson, although Rob did not argue.
Plaintiffs had arranged in advance to give some of our argument time
to two other attorneys representing amici parties to the
lawsuit. One is Nick Dranias of the
Goldwater Institute in
Arizona. Montana federal court rules require that attorneys from out
of state must associate with and be "sponsored by" a Montana attorney
in order to appear in federal court in Montana. Nick was sponsored
by attorney Tim Fox of Helena, recent candidate for Montana Attorney General.
The other amicus to whom Plaintiffs ceded some argument time was
Virginian attorney Herb Titus, who represents Gun Owners of America
and Gun Owners Foundation. Herb was
sponsored in Montana by attorney Greg Jackson of Helena.
The Attorney General of Montana has intervened in this lawsuit to
defend the constitutionality of a statute enacted by the Montana
Legislature and was given oral argument time separate from that given
to Plaintiffs and Defendant U.S. The Montana AG was represented by
attorney Chris Tweeten from the Montana Department of Justice in Helena.
The AG was persuaded to cede some of his allocated oral argument time
to Professor Jeff Renz of
the U. of M. School of Law, who argued for another amicus group of
Montana legislators.
Forward of the bar in the courtroom were the judge - Magistrate Judge
Jeremiah Lynch, the court secretary, the judge's two law clerks,
Quentin, me, Jessica (and Jessica's unnamed assistant), Tim, Nick,
Greg, Herb, Chris and Jeff. There were about 40 people in the
audience, including MSSA Board Member and State Representative Cary
Smith from Billings, State Senator Jim Shockley from Victor, Idaho
Representative Dick Harwood who sponsored the Idaho Firearms Freedom
Act, a delegate from Congressman Denny Rehberg's office and interesting others.
The order of presentation was this:
Magistrate Lynch introduced the case.
Quentin explained time ceded to Nick and Herb and introduced the
Montana sponsors for each who introduced Nick and Herb to the court.
Chris introduced himself and introduced Jeff. Then the hearing began.
Jessica went first for 35 minutes (all times approximate), and
reserved 15 minutes for rebuttal at the end.
Quentin went next for 20 minutes, then Nick for 10 minutes, and Herb
for another 10 minutes.
Following those, Chris argued for 15 minutes, and finally Jeff for 10 minutes.
Last, Jessica used her reserved 15 minutes for rebuttal/closing.
I will not attempt to cover all of the arguments made or questions
asked by Magistrate Lynch. There was not a lot of new material that
was not already in briefs provided by various parties, all of which
is available from the
FFA Website.
Although all attorneys involved (including Jessica) did a great job,
Jeff carved out for himself the role of a cleanup batter. He used
his final ten minutes primarily to address issues left in play by
questions from Magistrate Lynch. In jumping into that cleanup role,
I thought Jeff did an especially helpful job.
I have asked ALL others present (including audience members) to offer
personal comment about the hearing today, and I will post those
comments Online when available and send you a link. This location
will also offer digital pics of all the folks involved (outside the
Courthouse).
I will say that I thought we had a powerful presentation by those on
our side (i.e., everyone but Jessica). Our net argument was that the
lawsuit should not be dismissed, but should go to trial for
development of relevant facts. There are far too many legal issues
and subtleties at work to attempt to brief you on all of them
here. However, if an entirely neutral judge were presented with all
the briefs submitted and arguments heard today, I believe he'd let
the matter go to trial. Of course, I'm not prejudiced.
Whether or not that will actually happen remains to be seen. Quentin
thinks we may have a decision within two weeks, but I don't think
anyone really knows for sure.
No matter, the game is now engaged - we are on the field. We are in
play with MSSA v. Holder and at the wave front of a tsunami of
interest in states rights sweeping the U.S.
Best wishes,
Gary Marbut, president
Montana Shooting Sports Association
http://www.mtssa.org
author, Gun Laws of Montana
http://www.mtpublish.com

Re: Gun Groups File Lawsuit - Montana Firearms Freedom Act
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2010, 02:23:00 AM »
Fwd: Some comments - MSSA v. Holder hearing
From: Gary Marbut-MSSA
To: mssa@mtssa.org
FYI.
Here are some comments by some folks who attended the oral argument
hearing in MSSA v. Holder on Thursday. I expect some other comments
to come in and I will post those as they become available, so check
back. There are pictures here too.
http://marbut.com/MSSAHolderHearing/

Gary Marbut, president
Montana Shooting Sports Association
http://www.mtssa.org
author, Gun Laws of Montana
http://www.mtpublish.com

ShotSpotter used to locate gunfire source

http://www.hstoday.us/content/view/13925/187/

excerpt
The system is used to detect, locate, alert and track gunfire and other explosive events in near real-time. Each event is logged into a historical database for strategic and tactical crime analysis that reveals crime trends, patterns, and hot spots within a coverage area. ShotSpotter GLS data has also been used to corroborate and refute eye witness testimony, establish a timeline of events, and aid in crime scene reconstruction

The danger zone

Yahoo! Mail

Updates occur every 1440 minutes.

• map&text.jpg

http://vlad-unclevlad.blogspot.com/2010/07/danger-zone.html

Wild dog packs after TEOTWAWKI

http://www.captaindaves.com/buckshot/dogs.htm

Buckshot's Trappers Tales

Wild Dogs Pose Post-TEOTWAWKI Danger

I was in a chat room tonight and we were discussing dogs. I said "If TEOTWAWKI (the end of the world as we know it) happens, then 100 millions dog will be a major problem." Then we got to talking about the Great Depression and how the land was almost hunted dry.

First, before we accept that as fact, here was the argument. One person stated that when the great depression happened there was half the population, then there is now. So, if a great world collapse was to happen today, his premise was there wouldn't be anything left in the forest. I have to disagree. My biggest point was during the G.D., 40 percent of the population came from farms, most knew how to hunt and a fair percentage knew how to trap. Then it makes senses that the game would disappear. But even then, there were a percentage of trappers all over this country that fed their families and saved their farms with the fur money. See the value of trapping?

My premise is we have 90 percent of the U.S. population in the cities. Most are soft and would rather steal what you have then work at hunting or trapping. I believe most will never get out of the cities and will die in a hail of gunfire, rioting and fires. When all this is going on, they will let their pets go free, thinking at least they can survive on their own. This is why at 4:00 am I'm writing this article. I could not sleep. I know city people will do this and we will have 100 million dogs and 80 million cats released to go wild.

Now what I have to say next is not for the weak hearted, if for any reason you have a weak stomach or can't handle a cold hard reality check, then go back to my home page and choose another article.

OK, for those that are still with me, these animals will be a major problem and must be dealt with. Period. This isn't Disney, where you can talk to the poor dog and cat and the world is all fuzzy and warm. This is reality. If you own animals never, ever, EVER, release them to go wild. If you don't have the stomach for putting them down, have someone else do it. If you have to put dog food away at your camp, cache, whatever, great. I think a dog is invaluable then. A cat in the wild in this crisis is your greatest enemy. One study in Wisconsin found that the best predator against small game was the house cat. The common house cat killed more small game then all other predators in the study.

Now the reason I'm up this late and can't sleep is the dogs. I understand pack mentality and a pack of dogs scares me more then a pack of wolves. I have been studying the woods and wildlife my whole life. This is how the dogs will form packs, an alpha male will take control of the pack with a beta male as second in command, the packs will range from 6 to 100 dogs depending on the food supply.

This scenario, I read years ago of a pack like this had 45 dogs and this was how they attacked people. The alpha picked a friendly looking female like a collie. This is the decoy dog. As you are walking in the woods, the collie approaches and draws your attention, as the packs circle you for the kill. When the pack sneaks up to striking distance, they will attack and so will the decoy. I'm talking lighting fast 45 dogs coming at you. How many rounds does your clip have?

You see when the riots and the death in the city is happening the dogs will learn to fed on the bodies then in turn will acquire the taste for humans. Now you have a pack of wild dogs who consider you and your loved ones as food. They have no fear of man and will kill you to insure their own survival. Now, I'm not trying to scare you and sell fear. I am telling you that this will happen if the chaos of TEOTWAWKI occurs. You'll have to learn to kill dogs and cats on sight. Period. This is not an option.

If you want to insure your own survival, then listen to me. This is no game. If you think I'm just stating this to sell you trapping equipment then click off this article and go take a poll of the people you know, ask the following question, "What would you do with your dog and cat if you lost your job and could not afford to fed them?" I have lived in the country most of my life and I have had to deal with these animals that people let go on their own.

I have talked to the people who have told me that they still believe their Ralphy boy is probably still out there hunting with the best of the coyotes. Dreamy like and with pride in there voice! Or I know my cat is still alive because he was the best hunter in the neighborhood, he killed more birds then any other cat!

I'm not selling anything but reality! I'll tell you another dog story that happened to me. I was trapping on this farm years ago and I caught a black mangy, scaly looking black lab mixed mongrel. I have caught lots of dogs over the years and I can let most go with out a problem, unharmed. Anyway, I approached this dog and started talking to him and slowly moving closer. The dog stood up, wagged his tail and appeared happy to see me. When this happens, 99% percent of the time I can release the dog and place him in my truck to take to the farmhouse and explain what happened. Most dogs are fine and have a sore foot for a couple of days, then they're back to normal. Not this dog he lured me in with his friendly attitude until he thought I was in striking distance, then turned into attack mode. Lucky, I was prepared for the reaction and quickly jumped back. I never will forget that lighting fast change and the snarling teeth just missing my hand. The dog misjudged his strike range, if I had been a little closer this would be a different story.

So I walk back to truck truck, found the farmer and told him I caught his dog. The farmer says I don't own a dog and what color is it, because some black mongrel attacked his wife yesterday. To make long story short, the dog was turned over to the humane department and tested positive for rabies. Now this was back in the early eighties when a lot of people were getting laid-off. People were letting their dogs go in the farmers' fields and without proper care, and the dogs picked up all kinds of diseases. Someone has to deal with these dogs. There is no such thing as a dog or cat that is better off let go to fend for themselves. I have seen them all and most of the time you would never recognize them after 6 months on there own.

If a TEOTWAWKI does happen then someone in your group preferably everyone should trap, hunt and kill every dog and cat that has gone wild in your area. Period! I'm writing this early in the morning because I couldn't sleep at the thought of that many wild dogs and cats free in America.

The best defense to protect your garden and livestock or game animals would be snares. I would have 10 dozens coyote grade snares and enough heavy wire to set all of them at once.

Here is another theory: Starving people will kill the dogs for food. I say sure some will become food, but the average household that has guns has less then 50 rounds, although most survivalists will have much more. So, I think after the first week most people will be out of ammo. Then the packs will rule.

Let me know what you think, am I way off base? I just keep thinking of all the people in the cities and their "My dogs are my children" attitude. Dog and cat food is a huge business. I mean, they have pet psychiatrist for Christ sakes. Think about all the movies and shows like 911 where people risk their lives to save animals. I'm not saying that this is wrong, all I'm pointing out is people's attitude toward pets, and I guarantee they will let them go to fend for themselves when the food runs out. Make sure you are ready to face this threat.

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OK firearms freedom act

Governor of Oklahoma vetoes Firearms Freedom act ..
again because in his words,
" This legislation does nothing to enhance 2nd
Amendment protections…
… this legislation would endanger law enforcement
officers and citizens without doing anything to
strengthen an individual’s right to bear arms."

Read the article here http://tinyurl.com/25kh9e5
Please also see http://firearmsfreedomact.com/

Will there be increased problems in Tennessee, Montana,
Alaska, South Dakota, Wyoming, Utah and Arizona when
their firearms freedom laws are effective? I'll be
waiting to hear.

Texas legislature has not passed the firearms
freedom act for the same reason steers do not make
baby cows.

Shelter

Some 1991 3/4 ton 4x4 suburbans have rear cargo doors vice tail gate.
With rear seats down it will hold 4x8 plywood. If you choose to
sleep in it safe from weather, and crawlers and biters, it is convenient
to enter and exit the rear cargo doors.
There is no inside handle on the rear cargo door. Remove the panel
on passenger side cargo door, look through the access hole and
see things move as you press thumb button, and lock and unlock
the door. You may reach through access hole to lock, unlock and
open the door from inside.

Memorial Day

FREEDOM FLIES IN YOUR HEART LIKE AN EAGLE

Dusty old helmet, rusty old gun, They sit in the corner and wait - Two souvenirs of the Second World War That have withstood the time, and the hate. Mute witness to a time of much trouble. Where kill or be killed was the law - Were these implements used with high honor? What was the glory they saw? Many times I've wanted to ask them - And now that we're here all alone, Relics all three of a long ago war - Where has freedom gone? Freedom flies in your heart like an eagle. Let it soar with the winds high above Among the spirits of soldiers now sleeping, Guard it with care and with love. I salute my old friends in the corner, I agree with all they have said - And if the moment of truth comes tomorrow, I'll be free, or By God, I'll be dead! . . . Audie Murphy